Posts by moggy lover

5

Jehovah calls off Armageddon, labour issues

by IP_SEC in

ap january 1, 2010. jehovah calls off armageddon, labour issues.

world pop 1990 5.252 billion.

world pop 1999 5.996 billion.

moggy lover

Hey - and what about this follow up news flash:

The Artist Formerly Known As Prints, another GB member, stated today that the District Conventions organised for later this summer will have a slightly different format.

The Opening Adress will be performed by Freddie Frantz And the Dreamers, while the Nathan Homer Gnaws will perform live at the Ritual Baptisms. The Watchtower Magazine will be renamed The Rocktower, and because so many of the R&F members can neither read nor think it will only have pictures. "There's a pretty one of me in Hot Pink on the cover" gushed the enthusiastic Prints

Declining financial contributions from the R&F has caused Gods Organisation to invest in profitable industries instead, a GB spokesman said. Since the most profitable industry today is armaments, we are going full steam ahead in the manufacturing of state-of-the-art miniture hand grenades. Now, instead of just "macing" your victim, you can nuke him instead, the spokesman added. Instead of the Rocktower magazine, the R&F members will now sbmit a monthly report on how many of these they "place on a contribution" at your door. Yep - coming to a neighbourhood just like yours soon!

Cheers

35

Speaking in tongues

by Stewart75 in

there's something which has crossed my mind too often, after doing some research, meeting people myself- i have become more convinced that speaking in tongues was mis interpretered wrongly by the pentecostals.

i would be interested to hear jw's view of speaking in tongues and why jehovah witness classify them as one of the christodom.

which of their any of their customs/traditions which bible doesnt support, i am just trying to make myself aware, with help if possible.. clarification would be much appreciated

moggy lover

Much of the rationale, both for and against, for the phenomenon that we call Glossolalia [From the Greek "Glossa" - tongue and '' Laleo" - to chatter] is found in the NT book of 1 Cor especially chaps 12-14. Two verses in this section become crucial for interpreting this experience. At 1Cor 13:8 Paul says that "Tongues will cease" and two verses later he tells us when this will happen. It is when "To Telion" [See 1Cor 13:10 KIT] comes.

Now here is the problem: What does "To Telion" refer to and when is it supposed to come? Unfortunately, Paul himself did not elaborate, leaving suceeding generations of the Church to figure this out. Because there are two seperate, but related meanings for this Greek expression, it has led Evangelicals to at least two seperate conclusions.

First, the word "Telios" can mean "Perfect" - both organic and spiritual [see Matt 5:48 where the NWT has "translated" it thus] If this is what the word means at 1Cor13:10 then Paul may have been referring to some future time when final perfection would be bestowed on the Church, and Christians as a whole. At that time, he may have been saying, there would be no need for tongues so they will cease. If this is the case then "Tongues" is a legitmate, Christian occurence today.

But the word "Telios" can also mean "Complete" as in finishing something that has inadequacies. If this is what the word means then Paul would have been referring to something that was incomplete in his lifetime, but which he anticipated would be completed soon. The most logical explanation would appear to be that he may have been referring to the "Completing" of the Scriptures which was accomplished with the death of the last apostle, John, in about 100 AD. If that is what Paul meant, then there has been no need for tongues since the second cent AD The complete Bible taking its place.

It is unwise at the current state of our understanding, to be categorically dogmatic over this emotive issue. The conflict that has developed between "Tongue speaking" and "Non tongue speaking" Christians has two roots. One is theological, with each group convinced its understanding is biblical, and the other is distorting Scripture by its interpretation. The other cause of conflict is emotional. Sometimes immature Charismatics have propounded their views in divisive ways - and equally immature Non-Charismatics have struck back. I think that is why Paul slotted in his homily on "Love" in the middle of his discussion of this issue.

In my own personal opinion, I feel that the testimony of history is as good a reason to hold to the second view I mentioned above. Certainly, there is no historical mention of this practice after the second cent apart from an odd sect here and there which in some way had this experience. However, I do not presume to tell The Holy Spirit how He is to do His job, and if He inspires some to do this today it becomes none of my business

It also needs to be remembered that the WTS belief system is based purely on the excercising of the intellect, leaving no place for the emotional element in worship. The constant, repetitive, cycle of "Taking in knowledge" in a centrally controlled, structured way, facilitates the WTS in its propagandising to its R&F. In this methodology, facts are never presented, they are manipulated, information is never elicited, it is distilled, and ideas are never developed, they are imposed, leaving no room for debate or even dissent. In this system there is no room either for "Tongues"

Christians have learned otherwise. Debate is no proof of discord, and dissent no proof of disunity. The WTS has deliberately confused conformity with unity, demanding undivided adhearance to its every edict For this alone they stand as a dangerous and malignant cult.

Cheers

23

Disproving An Earthly Paradise

by Diogenes in

two elders are coming round to "shepherd" me next week.. i've been reading the article available by jon mitchell?

about rev:7 discussing the 1980 w.t which is full of lies about naos and hieron.. i'm going to bring this w.t up but i know the elders will mention the scriptures in psalms 37 and isaiah to prove that there is an earthly paradise.. is there a good logical way to refute these scriptures?.

diogenes

moggy lover

When maintaining a dialogue with WT followers we need to pay attention to the importance they place on certain verses of Ps 37. Ps 37:29 is so vital to their theological interests that in their 1982 recruiting manual, "You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth" they quote that verse no less than 5 times - giving the false impression that the Bible has more to say about living on earth forever than it actually does.In fact it is the very first verse of Scripture they use in that book because it has a prominent place in the frontispiece

In discussing this Psalm there are several points that you can gently point out to the reps who come to you.

1 The understanding of this Psalm teeters on a question of word meanings [or semantics] For instance the Heb word "Eretz" occurs 6 times in this Psalm [Vss 3, 9, 11, 22, 29, 34] and how we understand this portion of Scripture will depend on how we view this word here. Unfortunately there is a degree of ambiguity in the Heb because this word can either mean "earth" or "land" and either application is possible in this context.Since the word can indeed have two seperate meanings how then should we translate it in this Psalm? - Earth? or Land? [There are several places that the NWT has "translated" Eretz as "land" - Gen 13:6 for example]

I do not know Heb so I cannot say dogmatically. However, for what its worth I can tell you that I have four seperate Jewish translations in my personal library: JPS, Harkavy, Leeser, and the Tanach, and all four say "land" in this place. I submit that if the Jewish people dont know their own language then we are in trouble! A quick look at the other 72 translations I have seem to say "land" in a proportion of 4 to 1 over "earth" So a translation of "The righteous will inherit the LAND" seems far more probable.

2 Is this Psalm concerned with the FUTURE, especially a future "paradise earth"? When we take a look at Vss 3, 4, 5, 7,we see a consistent pattern of timing. All the verbs used in these verses are in the PRESENT tense - "Trust" "Reside" "Take exquisite in'' etc. Since these are all positioned at the start of the Psalm I feel that that David is trying to say something here. He is not even in a remote way providing us, by way of a convoluted interpretation provided by the WTS, a prophecy about some future that is distant and remote. Rather the present tense as used here tells us that David is more corncerned with very practical values. The issues that he is adressing in this Ps are those of life and death, wisdom and folly, reward and punishment in the here and now. David is concerned, as we should be, with the power, greed and prosperity of the wicked, and the suffering of the righteous. This issue, and its eventual resolution is the subject of this Psalm. We need not feel envious, or self-pity, rather David suggests a wise trust in Yahweh, submitting to His will in the resloution of this dillema.

3 When vs 29 says : ''They [ie the "righteous"] will dwell in it forever" is the Ps referring to ONE PARTICULAR generation who in some unspecified way are going to live forever? Where does it say that? As can be seen "they" is a generic term simply referring to the "righteous" - evidently for as long as the earth survives there will always be "righteous" people who have a title to it. In the very same portion of Scripture which tells us that the earth abides "forever" [Time Indefinite - NWT] It ALSO tells us that "One generation is going and another is coming" [Eccls 1:4] As far as I can tell, the WTS has always emphasized the latter part of this verse. I have yet to see a single verse of Scripture that dictates an earthly and permanent existence for humans of one particular generation. The best that the WTS can do is point to various verses that show the enduring existence of planet earth, and that human beings will be its immutable inhabitants, but nowhere is the WTS interpretation of one interminable generation ever discussed.

We, like every generation who have gone before, and every generation that will ever be, must face the Ultimate Question : Where will we spend eternity? As is inevitable, we will pass off the earthly scene at some point, and another generation will take our place. The whole purpose of the NT is to relate to us how that decision can be made. Ultimately, of course, in the Fulness of Time, Eph 1:10 tells us that there will be one single enduring generation but at that time "all things, including heaven and earth, will be brought together" thus implying a complete accessability to both dimensions for the "righteous" The obscenity of the WTS is to restrict the meaning of this NT verse to an elite group, thus denying their R&F its meaning.

The weakness in the WT system of belief, especially in Psalm 37, is their persistent attitude of ignoring the wider context of what it is truly saying, and depending on quoting selective portions so as to predispose someone to believe in a false hope.For the past five generations, since the 1920s in fact, the WTS has held this promise out, assuring each of those previous inhabitants that THEY specifically were the inheritors of Ps 37. That there are still people out there who cling to this false dream is a testimony, not to faith, but credulity

Hope this helps

Cheers

40

Is there anyone at Bethel who knows Greek or Hebrew?

by VM44 in

fred franz was known to have some knowledge of the greek and hebrew languages, and made use of that knowledge when he worked on the new world translation of the holy scriptures.

but he died in 1992. is there anyone at bethel today who has a knowledge of these biblicl languages?.

it would be strange if a religious book publishing organization turned out to have no one at all who could read the bible in its original languages.. does anyone know what people are currently on the watchtower's bible translation committee, and if they know the languages?.

moggy lover

No, I am not aware of any G[r]eek scholars in the WTS ..... But having said that I believe there are several GEEK ones there

Cheers

16

Baptism for the dead

by M.J. in

what on earth was paul talking about in 1 cor 15:29: "now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?

if the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?".

it's one of his main arguments for a bodily resurrection to the corinthians.

moggy lover

Would you believe that there are more than 200 explanations that have been given for this verse!! [The Bible Knowledge Commentary - Walwoord and Zuck, pg 544] with almost every kook and crazy putting in his [or her] dogmatic 2c worth. Probably the most famous exponents of this practice are the Mormons who, against the consensus of scholarly opinion insist on putting a positive spin on this precedent.

There are some things that we do not know in dealing with this scripture, and that is what makes it almost impossible to make assertive statements about it. For instance we do not know who exactly the "they" or the "some'' are who performed this rite. Were they false teachers from within the Christian Community who were insisting that this was a legitimate theological consequence of being a follower of Christ? Or wre they a "pagan" group practicing this for their own beliefs and whose teaching was beginning to infiltrate the Corinthian believers. Whoever these ones were, all we know is that they practiced this rite.

Another problem is that we do not exactly know what this rite consisted of. We know that not far from Corinth there was a place called Eleusis, [it was north of Corinth just across the Saronic Gulf] It was the centre of an ancient "mystery" religion [ie a religion in which the inititate learned, by increments, various ''mysteries'' pertaing to this religion] well known even in Homer's time - which was the 4C BC. He lauded this place in his "Hymn To Demeter" Part of the rites of initiation into this religion were washings of purification in the sea, without which no one could hope to experience bliss in the afterlife. It is possible that a vicarious [experiencing something on behalf of another] application became common. People may have washed themselves in the sea so that others may have a more blessed life in the hereafter.

Given the Corinthian weakness for distorting matters of church practice [1Cor 11-14] it is likely that some in the congregation [evidently influenced by the Eleusian Mysteries] were propounding a false view of baptism, which Paul may then have taken up and used as an argument against those who denied the Resurrection. In other words in mentioning the practice of "baptism of the dead" Paul was not actually adressing that issue, but using it as an argument for the Christian concept of the resurrection. Whatever that rite actually was, Paul does not elaborate, because the Corinthians were aware of what it was.

It is clear from the context, however, that because Paul used such terms as "they" and "those" - and not "we" - that he was contrasting his own belief and teaching from that described here. There is no interpretation that is entirely satisfactory but at least we know that the WTS "spin" that they put on this text, facilitated by their "translation" of those words ["baptism for the {purpose of being} dead {ones}] is patently absurd The word "hyper" used in that verse [Baptism "hyper" the dead] can mean: "on behalf of" "for" etc I have yet to see a Bible that endorses the WT use of "for the purpose of being"

Cheers

.

29

What proportion of JW kids stay Witnesses? How about in your cong?

by jwfacts in

the wts is currently growing at about 1.3 % which is similar to the global propulation growth rate.

if all the jw kids stayed as jws then the religion could grow as quickly as it is now without any door knocking.. if in 2005 1.2 billion hours witnessing resulted in the religion only growing at the rate it should be naturally it suggests a lot a kids are leaving, or doorknocking is not having very good results.. of about 100 people born into the wts that i can remember in my congregations in australia about 3/4 of them have left.

is that the same in your congregation?

moggy lover

Hmmmm... Am I seeing a discernable trend or what? In my earlier post [see above] I mentioned that the only figures I had were from the 60s - 70s and the number leaving was about 33% While reading the latest figures from the 80s - 90s - 2005 the numbers seem to have gone up alarmingly -approximately 85% !!!

Give it another decade and who knows they will ALL leave - 100%!!!

I wonder if the boffins at WT HQ are aware of this spiralling trend? Are they doing anything about it? Maybe they simply dont give a stuff

Cheers

17

Jephtah's daughter - human sacrifice or not?

by DannyBloem in

can somebody bring some light to this question?.

judges chapter 11.. if you read vers 31 it looks clear that jephtha is speaking about human sacrefice.

"he speaks about a burn offering for jehovah of the first thing or person that walks out of his house.

moggy lover

Personally I feel that the most accepable explanation to place on this distastful incident is the literal one. Wheras it has been argued by the WTS and others that Jephtah had somehow commuted his daughter's fate from being a burnt-offering to perpetual virginity thus preserving the idea of "sacrifice" but in some "symbolic way, this is hardly warranted by the simple narrative. We can do no better than to take the restrained, but chilling statement:"He did with her according to his vow" as implying her actual sacrifice.

Having said that however, we must also say that archiving this incident for posterity does not imply endorsement. Neither the individual chronicler of this event, nor the Bible in its larger content suggests that such an action had divine sanction. Jephtah comes down to us as a rash and boorish man, hardly the stuff of leadership and his example as recorded in the text stands as a lesson to all of us. Zeal for Yahweh can be misdirected, it can be intolerant, it can in many ways be put to shame by the simple faith of unbelievers, or believers of other paths. But most of all it can be led by men unfit for the position of governance that they have acquired.

Cheers

29

What proportion of JW kids stay Witnesses? How about in your cong?

by jwfacts in

the wts is currently growing at about 1.3 % which is similar to the global propulation growth rate.

if all the jw kids stayed as jws then the religion could grow as quickly as it is now without any door knocking.. if in 2005 1.2 billion hours witnessing resulted in the religion only growing at the rate it should be naturally it suggests a lot a kids are leaving, or doorknocking is not having very good results.. of about 100 people born into the wts that i can remember in my congregations in australia about 3/4 of them have left.

is that the same in your congregation?

moggy lover

In my cong in the late 70s we had many migrant families from Italy, Greece etc and several from mixed marriages, mostly with the wife being a JW. Over the decade I was there, a large percentage of the kids dropped off I dont have any exact figures, but I would say about one third.

Cheers

11

The University of AWAKE

by stillajwexelder in

the university of awake

coldredrain must take all the credit for this phrase -it is a good one and deserves its own thread .

i have heard awake to the watchtower before.. are there any other good phrases you all can think of

moggy lover

How does :

Pax Watchtowerana

grab ya???

3

jehovah the god of purpose

by ezra in

isaiah 55;10,11 does anyone understand this scripture in regards to jehovah being the god of purpose

moggy lover

Hi, ezra - despite the WTS which uses this text only retrospectively [ie looking backwards to a distant past as in Eden] - the text at Isa 55 is full of anticipation and is best understood as a future hope for those who are in some sort of bondage as the immediate readers of Isaiah would have read the text.

According to the WTS, the "purpose" of Yahweh as seen in Isa 55:11 can only be seen in the context of the ''purpose'' that Yahweh evidently made in Eden, that is that man was to live on earth forever. That man was indeed made for earth existence is accepted by most evangelical believers, but whether this was to be extended to all eternity with one generation continuously occupying the earth is disputed. This is disputed because the further revelation of Scripture as disclosed in the NT, especially Eph Ch 1, shows otherwise. The WTS in applying this chapter only to the "annointed" makes a mockery of the clear intent of Paul.

The immediate context of Isa 55:10, 11, is a message of hope to the two divisions of the Jewish people. Israel, the northern kingdom had gone into Assyrian captivity and the looming menace of Babylon was on the horizon for the southern Kingdom of Judah. But the exile of the Jewish people was not the end of them. Yahweh would regather them back on the land, which was to bloom again. Vss 12 and 13 are a beautiful picture of the realized fulfillment of a promise of God. Those who were in bondage and those anticipating it would have been reassured by these words. But- how were those in this bondage to be reassured? Yahweh in Vs 10 uses the illustration of natural events like rain and snow and the fertility of the earth to press home the point. Just as thes are inevitable, because they have been decreed by the unimpeachble Word of Yahweh, so release from captivity is assured.

There is suffient reason to believe that those great words of Yahweh continue to echo in our day because we are all still in bondage. To the enemies of sin, and death. We can even be in some sort of literal bondage, a tyrannical marriage, an enslaving religion like the WTS , even a dictatorial government that forbids the right of religious freedom. All those caught up in these cicumstances can take hope from those words.

Some evangelicals also see in those words a concrete realization for a future Millenium of peace ruled by the Messiah that Isaiah awaited.

Hope this helps

Cheers